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Please Help Me Understand


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#1 Guest_chasiekaemami_*

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 05:10 PM

user posted image Please help me understand the muslim religion? Im non-muslim myself but my twins father and family are. Im very confused. I don't understand what the religion is all about and Im not against it. I just simply wasn't brought up believing in any certain religion. Im glad I found this site so maybe you ladies can help me out. See the reason that Im so confused is my twins grandmother (who is muslim, born and raised) has not accepted my children or myself as a part of her family. This completely doesn't make sense to me. Are the muslim beliefs that strong that a non-muslim is not accepted even though people are related by blood? Please, anyone, help me to try and understand. I thank you in advance.

#2 sarah_anisah

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 05:26 PM

[marq=left:e9be461a4b]Welcome to the forum

The very basics of the Muslim religion of Islam is to believe in Allah, there is no God but Allah (meaning there are no partners to Him) and that Prophet Muhammed (peace and blssings be upon him) is His last messenger.

I don't like to ask such a personal question but are you married to your twins father?

A lot of Muslim families regardless of whether they are "practising" Muslims or not are upset if their children have relationships outside of Islam. Islam is about respect and modesty and obedience.

A lot of the members here are from a background as you describe without religion (I was brought up strict Catholic) and many will start out looking into Islam purely to try and "understand it", the majority of sisters here are from a non Muslim background and have since prayed their shahada (testimony of faith) and become Muslim, Alhamdilullah!

I will try and find some basic articles for you to read to help you understand, maybe you could ask your twins father to explain the basics to you?

Just for the record I was Muslim whenI got married and had a hard time getting my in laws to accept me (even though I was Muslim), so it is more outsiders they maybe have a hard time accepting.

Anyway, look forward to your questions :wink:

Take care

Sarah :wink:

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 06:02 PM

Hi, thanks for your reply. No Im not married to my babies father and in my opinion this should not matter, i strongly beleive blood should be thicker than any religion. His mother has lived in Canada for over 27 years and should know by now that the muslim religion cannot always be expected to be followed, times have changed. Also my babies father does not practise his religion as he should, so I can't really ask him about much of it. He obviously doesn't know since we are not together any longer and he treats me with the most disrespect. Threatening me he will go to Pakistan and marry 7 wives? Is this actually true that a man can do that? lol Hard to beleive. If so then loyalty is very different there from here in Canada where you can actually be charged with adultery and serve prison time for cheating on your spouse. I have read about Allah and what his expectations are. I found this on a website... When a Muslim assemble in the congregation of the Day, they all whole-heartedly pray for forgiveness and strength in faith. And Allah has assured those who approach Him with sincerity of His mercy and forgiveness. In that pure assembly and highly spiritual congregation any true Muslim would feel ashamed of himself before Allah to hold any enmity or ill feelings toward his brethren.
A true Muslim would be deeply impressed by this brotherly and spiritual assembly, and would overcome hid feting if he has been exposed to any. Consequently, he would find himself moving along with others responding to the spirit of the Day to purify his heart and soul.
In any case, he would forgive those who might have wronged him; because he himself would be praying for Allah's forgiveness, and would do his best to acquire it.
The spirit of this highly devotional assembly would teach him that if he forgives he will be forgiven.
And when he forgives, the virtue of forgiveness will be mercifully exercised by Allah, and widely exchanged between the Muslims.
So Im not sure of the whole meaning behind it but what that tells me is that someone following the muslim religion who thinks someone has wronged them should be forgiven? Well I guess perhaps it is only for muslim people and not non-muslims? I am just completely upset about all of this... If and when my children have their own children theres no way I'd ever be able to not accept them. It wouldn't matter to me what their religion was... especially if they were my first grandchildren as they are hers. Thanks for listening. smile.gif

#4 Blessed by Allah

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 06:47 PM

hi,

Welcome to the forum.

It seems to me that his mother's response is cultural, not necessarily religious.  It is very hard for some people to accept that their son or daughter wants to marry outside of thier cultural group, or nationality.  

Also, in Islam, it is very bad for women (and men too, but especially women) to commit zina (adultery, premarital sex).  In the past, some cultures have been known to do honor killings, which is when the father or brother of a girl who commited zina kills her to protect the honor of the family.  Honor killings are not Islamic!  In many cultures, the honor of the family lies in the women.  It's forgivable for a young man to make mistakes, but not a young woman.  

It may be this kind of thinking that makes it very difficult for his mother to accept you and your children.

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 09:31 PM

Hi Thanks for the welcome smile.gif

I totally see what youre saying but honestly I think alot of that is really wrong. Killing someone for having sex before marriage? WOW! Thats so wrong to me.

I understand maybe she would be upset that it's not what she wanted for her son.. to not be married to a muslim woman and then have children. But still the fact of the matter is it has happened and i would have figured she would have thought she should accept it since she is close with her son. I know it is because of her religious beliefs and not cultural since she has admitted that she is against having a relationship with my sons and myself because we are not muslim. She also has told my babies daddy that if my sons and i were baptised muslims and taught the muslim religion then she would accept us as part of her family.

I just don't understand how someone could be this way after being in a country with so many different religions around them for so many years and still be so difficult to accept the fact that other ways of life do exhist. It's going to be a big shame if and when she ever does come around and want to see my sons... because they wont know her and their relationship wont be as good as it could have been from day one.

#6 ummabdulraheem

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 10:02 PM

hi tiina

its actually 4 wives a man can have, not seven  biggrin.gif

a muslim man can marry a christian, jew, or muslim.

a muslim should not be having children and relationships outside marriage at all. i suspect this is the reason his mother disregards you and your children as family.

i know this is hard to accept or believe for a non muslim, but we have certain rules and we have to live by them  smile.gif

#7 sarah_anisah

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 10:19 PM

Hello again Tiina

Assalamu Alaikum sisters

Islam is not only a religion it is a complete way of life, I and many others who have come from a non Muslim background actually feel "safe" to have these protecting guidelines around our everyday lives. Islam is unchanged from the religion as it was revealed, this is why Muslims do not still in this day an age accept things which go against Islamic teachings. No matter how long one has lived in a western community Islam should still be the pinnacle in everyones life.

Many things about Islam are probably confusing to you right now :cry: , but I pray we can help you to learn for the sake of yourself, but most importantly for your children. People who we meet in every day lives unfortunately are not "good advertisments" for Islam and it is very hard to see past this when looking at Islam. There are many instances where Islam may forbid something but the persons wants and desires makes them weak and succumb to temptaion (whatever they maybe). I always say, Islam is perfect, Muslims are not - meaning the religion of Islam is the perfect way of life, however some of the people (Muslims) that follow it are not the best examples.

Plural marriages do exist in Islam and are not "extramarital affairs" as many westerner like portray them as. There are VERY STRICT guidlines which MUST be adhered to in these marriages and not every man has to have one :wink:

Sarah

#8 mariemuad

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 10:44 PM

Dear chasiekaemami,

First, I think that, to understand his mother, you have to forget the "Canadian" culture. Yes, she has been living there for 27 years but it doesn't mean that she accepts everything in that society.

For a muslim, it is very important to believe in ONE GOD. If you tell a muslim who is not praticising that he is not muslim, he will be very ofended.

So her son has had a relationship before marriage, which is something wrong for her. Furthermore, he has had kids. Now, those kids born out of wedlock will not be accepted by the society. So, she cannot tell people that she has got 2 kids. It would be a BIG shame.

If those kids won't be brought up as muslims, it adds up to the shame. How could he have kids, then not bring them up as muslims and thus end in the Hellfire? Yes, Muslims believe that, to be saved on the day of judgement, you have to be muslim and follow the laws of Islam.

Another BIG thing in Islam is respect to parents. So, if the mother asked her son to repent and not to see you anymore, he will probably do it. Even if he is not practicing, he has been brought up with those values and it won't go away. So he will probably listen to his mother, which is why he is not very nice at the moment with you.

A BIg mistake he did is to go with somebody who doesn't understand his culture and his religion. A BIG mistake you made is thinking that, because he was brought up in CAnada, he is a Canadian. No. Any foreigner going to live in a foreign land MIGHT take some of the customs of that land but not all of them. And even more if he is muslim. So he might go back to his culture at any time, which is what he might be doing at the moment as he realises his mistake.

I advise you to read about what beliefs Muslims have and to look at how comprehensive Islam is. The difference between Islam and other religions is that it is not just beliefs but also a way of life and ultimately trying to better oneself.

Umm Hanifa

#9 mollythedolly

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 11:13 PM

Dear sister

I was just wondering....  Imagine you moved to another country and lived there for 27 years but in the countries culture there was something you found to be completely against your values...imagine the worst thing you can think of something so bad you couldn't beleive people couldn't see it was wrong.  Imagine you don't have much choice but to live there for one reason or another...  Even if you lived there for the rest of you life would you change YOUR value system?? If you are completely honest with yourself I don't think you would you might live there and watch it but never accept it or do it yourself.  How you are brought up affects your entire life,  you can not turn on your values and then turn them off for convenience sake.  This situation is probably killing the grandmother inside.  She cannot accept that her son did something so abhorant in her eyes.  Its possible that she had fond hopes for who her son would marry and how her grand children would be.  

She has said she will accept the children and you if you all accept Islam... Please just try to put yourself in her shoes even though its difficult.  In her eyes her grandchildren are going to go to hell.  Her own leverage against this that she sees is to hold back her acceptance in hopes that the situation can be redeemed.  She is in her eyes trying to correct a greater evil.  If she didn't care beleive me she wouldn't have even offered acceptance under any condition.

She obviously cares a great deal even though you don't see it.  

Regards
Angie

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 03:34 AM

Ok, so i see what you are all saying. BUT culture or no culture, religion or no religion... how can anyone be so cruel to blame these children and say they will go to hell? They did not chose to come into this world.

Also I have tried to think of this situation through her eyes and I just simply cannot. Wether I believed in any certain religion or culture I could never act the manner she is. She has only seen my sons for 10 minutes of their entire little lives and this is because her son begged her to come to the hospital when they were born. And you were right mariemuad, she is completely ashamed... she didn't even tell her two daughters about their nephews, I did. I haven't ever met them before but I decided to email the older one wondering why she didn't want to meet my boys. The response I got back was "f**k you, p.s. you're kids are ugly" So i guess there is more to this then simple cultural differences. Im begining to sense racism in this family aswell.

I guess all I wanted was a somewhat "normal" family for my boys, grandparents on both sides as well as aunts. I am not asking for her or her daughters to approve of me, I just wish my children could have a loving and supportive family all around. They haven't done any wrong, they deserve better then being shunned like this. She never even gave them a chance. They are the most beautiful children... how could anyone not want to know them and be part of their lives?  It just doesn't make sense.

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 03:53 AM

Quote

hi,

Welcome to the forum.

It seems to me that his mother's response is cultural, not necessarily religious.  It is very hard for some people to accept that their son or daughter wants to marry outside of thier cultural group, or nationality.  

Also, in Islam, it is very bad for women (and men too, but especially women) to commit zina (adultery, premarital sex).  In the past, some cultures have been known to do honor killings, which is when the father or brother of a girl who commited zina kills her to protect the honor of the family.  Honor killings are not Islamic!  In many cultures, the honor of the family lies in the women.  It's forgivable for a young man to make mistakes, but not a young woman.  

It may be this kind of thinking that makes it very difficult for his mother to accept you and your children.

Just wanted to go back to this topic for a second and point out something I read on it The problem of “honor killings” is not a problem of morality or of ensuring that women maintain their own personal virtue; rather, it is a problem of domination, power and hatred of women who, in these instances, are viewed as nothing more than servants to the family, both physically and symbolically. This I also cannot grasp... I dont know what cultures or religions this is practised in but it sure sounds like an ego trip on the males part thats for sure. Whatever happened to equality? The article I read also said this... inregards to a man commiting "zina"... In order for a case to even be brought before a Muslim court, several strict criteria must be met. The most important is that any accusation of illicit sexual behavior must have been seen by four witnesses; and they must have been witness to the act of sexual intercourse itself. Like that would ever happen!!! Who anywhere has 4 people watching them have sex!!?!?!? I was speechless after reading that! How is it a man is so much more superior then a woman? What has happened wherever this is taking place that women are so highly degraded and disregarded? Im quite appauled that a man would be let off for this and a woman would be killed!! Where's these peoples morals? I dont think I will ever understand this one.  sad.gif

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 04:17 AM

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Dear chasiekaemami,

First, I think that, to understand his mother, you have to forget the "Canadian" culture. Yes, she has been living there for 27 years but it doesn't mean that she accepts everything in that society.

For a muslim, it is very important to believe in ONE GOD. If you tell a muslim who is not praticising that he is not muslim, he will be very ofended.

So her son has had a relationship before marriage, which is something wrong for her. Furthermore, he has had kids. Now, those kids born out of wedlock will not be accepted by the society. So, she cannot tell people that she has got 2 kids. It would be a BIG shame.

If those kids won't be brought up as muslims, it adds up to the shame. How could he have kids, then not bring them up as muslims and thus end in the Hellfire? Yes, Muslims believe that, to be saved on the day of judgement, you have to be muslim and follow the laws of Islam.

Another BIG thing in Islam is respect to parents. So, if the mother asked her son to repent and not to see you anymore, he will probably do it. Even if he is not practicing, he has been brought up with those values and it won't go away. So he will probably listen to his mother, which is why he is not very nice at the moment with you.

A BIg mistake he did is to go with somebody who doesn't understand his culture and his religion. A BIG mistake you made is thinking that, because he was brought up in CAnada, he is a Canadian. No. Any foreigner going to live in a foreign land MIGHT take some of the customs of that land but not all of them. And even more if he is muslim. So he might go back to his culture at any time, which is what he might be doing at the moment as he realises his mistake.

I advise you to read about what beliefs Muslims have and to look at how comprehensive Islam is. The difference between Islam and other religions is that it is not just beliefs but also a way of life and ultimately trying to better oneself.

Umm Hanifa

I thought I should tell you all a little about my babies daddy and how he is very NOT muslim like. First off he had numerous girlfriends (in which he also had pre-marital sex with) and has cheated as well. He is only 23 years old and was born here in Canada. His parents were not strict with him and the muslim religion I assume because he has done drugs, drank and stole when he was younger. Im sure that is not the proper way to carry out the muslim culture. I don't believe his mother tells him not to come here either, but if she does he definitely does not obey her. The reason I believe he is disrespecting me is because he is not in control of our relationship or myself any longer. I am a strong Finnish/French girl with alot of independence. I enjoy being in charge of what happens in my life. My babies daddy has alot of growing up to do still. He figures it is okay that he do as he pleases without consequence, which in my eyes is unacceptable once you become a father and hold vast responsbilities. He should be stepping up to the plate and should be there for his children and not running off to the clubs doing who knows what until 4am!!  So with him it's a matter of just plain outright immaturity.

#13 Sister_Nadira

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 04:32 AM

You sound frustrated and angry with this situation, and I can understand that. I would like to suggest to you, however, that you start focusing on what you can do, and what you can change. Regardless of what kind of person your ex is or what his motivations might be, you cannot do much of anything to influence him at this point, right? It is a waste of time to pick apart what may have gone through his head, or his faults, etc.

Obviously you cannot force the father and his family to treat you and your children well. Only time will tell, and all you can do is behave rationally and from a position of knowledge (of your legal rights; plus it's impressive that you're learning about Islam in order to get a better handle on your situation) and let things unfold.

You can do a lot for your children, though, and you might as well try as hard as you can to let go of the negative feelings that will only bog you down, and focus on enjoying your babies and being the best parent you can be. Yes, it does suck if they never get to have a relationship with their paternal family. But you're strong, and you'll provide the best upbringing you can for those children, oui? smile.gif

I speak from experience. It is so draining to chase around all the what-ifs and but-whys in your mind...

#14 muslimsister

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 04:33 AM

Sorry, but I feel like you are mixing up religion and what you are reading.
Honor killings have no place in Islam.

In Islam if a man and women are seen by four witnesses doing a sexual act, they are both punished and the only difference would be if one was married and the other not.  It makes no difference which one is female and which is male.  

Please read about Islam from good sources. There are many sites that have incorrect or false information on Islam.  Here are a good few sites for you to look through:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/u...ndingislam.html

http://www.beconvinced.com/index.htm

http://www.islam-guide.com/


That first bit that you posted about the Day of Judgement is a strange story that I have never read.  Where did you get it from?

#15 mollythedolly

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 04:38 AM

Dear sis

I'm getting a little confused about a few things...

I'm sure your children are beautiful as all babies are and I doubt anyone blames them for their birth.  I'm sure they don't want to blame their relative either so they seem to be taking the easy way out and blaming you when it takes two to tango.  Where I'm getting confused each time something is addressed you add another person to the mix.

Out of wedlock relationships are not accepted in any religion that I'm aware of some tolerate the results better than others but none condone fornication.  If the mother is willing to accept you if you convert and teach your children or at least if she could accept a counter offer of promising they will be brought up as muslims, you have the choice to take her up on her offer and expect her to follow through or to reject it and go your own way.  The way they are treating you is not nice... Especially if the daughter cursed at you... That's way out of line.  Unfortunately we here can't make everything all right for you.  You chose to have a relationship with someone you have little in common with and from a culture you don't understand.  The childrens father is under obligation to support his children and be present in their lives but his family are under no such obligation and you have no obligation to to be involved in their lives and culture either.  You can not expect his entire family to change their ways, customs or beleifs to accommodate you or your boyfriends choices.  If you want them to be involved then its up to you to make some changes or leave them alone.  It is a shame that your children will be affected but you can't force the issue.

Here we can help you only by explaining our way of life and offering limited advise on how to handle situations, there is no way we can solve your problem for you... if you don't agree with what you learn here theres nothing we can do about it  and we will not apologise for our beliefs if you don't like them.  Inter-racial relationships are difficult under the best circumstances beleive me I know.  I wish you the best and hope everything will work out better for you and your children.  Inshallah even if she can't bring herself to accept your out of wedlock relationship I hope she will soften towards her grand kids.  

By the way,  You are mistaken about going to jail for adultery in Canada... I live here too... Would be a good idea but if it was true then half of the politicians would be sitting in jail.  Adultery costs you in divorce court.  You can however go to jail for poligamy...  Last I heard though was it was under review and set to be put to the test after the question of gay marriage is settled one way or another.  I'm not sure but I think the arguement for plural marriage is being pushed by a group of  mormons.

Best wishes
Angie

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You are always welcome to ask any questions you like no matter how trivial or large.  Can't promise you will always like the answers you get but we can promise that any answers will be honest and with good intent and to the best of our knowledge..

#16 D A L I

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 04:42 AM

Hi chasiekaemami,

i don't mean to jump in the middle of a conversation but i wanted to welcome you to the forum. God-willing you will find all the information you are looking for and more.

I haven't read all the posts yet but feel free to ask all teh questions you want. God-willing i will be able to help out along with the other sisters.


#17 mollythedolly

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 04:52 AM

Dear sis

Arghhh he's a player too... Oh boy.  Not to be too nosey but did you know he was like this before you got involved with him or did he pretend to behave for a little while?  We have some relative who behave like that too.  I hate to tell you but both of them are either pushing 40 or well and truly into middle age and still behaving like teens with no sign of reforming.  Some men never grow up!!  

Angie

#18 jaolep

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 07:21 AM

Bismillah,

Assalamu aleikum sisters,

Hi Chasiekaemami,

I also want to say welcome to the forum, and may some of your questions be answered here.

Many move from one country to another at young age and therefore abandon the religion they grew up with. Many are born in another country than their parents grew up in. Both situations may create confusion. Both for the parents and the children. So when the children grows up, their parents still might keep on trying to teach them of 'their old religion' while the children instead take part of the cultural behaviour in the country they are living in. And it might create problems.
I think the situation you are in are not so unusal, but very sad. And many of the children that then did grew up and became adults, find themselves 'trapped' and want to go back to what they learnt as children. And it may be one of these situations that you are in.
The sisters have already explained that having sex and children outside wedlock is unacceptable in Islam. And this view cannot be 'changed' in anyway, it IS.
But if you have interest in learning about Islam and by that try to find a way to find acceptance from your children's fathers family, then you at least have nothing to loose by looking into Islam. It is a possibility to make your children's situation a better one.
I hope your inheritance of the Finnish 'sisu' show you the right direction to take.

Good luck, Maryam

#19 mariemuad

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 10:02 AM

Dear chasiekaemami

A quick note as I am on my way out. The kids are not blamed for coming into the world. However, it is important for the grandmother that they are brought up as muslims.

Umm Hanifa

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 12:44 PM

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You sound frustrated and angry with this situation, and I can understand that. I would like to suggest to you, however, that you start focusing on what you can do, and what you can change. Regardless of what kind of person your ex is or what his motivations might be, you cannot do much of anything to influence him at this point, right? It is a waste of time to pick apart what may have gone through his head, or his faults, etc.

Obviously you cannot force the father and his family to treat you and your children well. Only time will tell, and all you can do is behave rationally and from a position of knowledge (of your legal rights; plus it's impressive that you're learning about Islam in order to get a better handle on your situation) and let things unfold.

You can do a lot for your children, though, and you might as well try as hard as you can to let go of the negative feelings that will only bog you down, and focus on enjoying your babies and being the best parent you can be. Yes, it does suck if they never get to have a relationship with their paternal family. But you're strong, and you'll provide the best upbringing you can for those children, oui? smile.gif

I speak from experience. It is so draining to chase around all the what-ifs and but-whys in your mind...
Thank you for your support... Yes I am doing the best I can, I am a new mother and doing everything on my own for my children. I don't wish to force them into anything they don't want to do. I only attempted once to contact the family about this unfortunate situation. I know now it's a waste of time to try and get through to these people. I am only one person just trying to make things "right" and all I want is for everyone to be happy but they don't seem to share the same feelings.




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