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#21 Guest_chasiekaemami_*

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 12:50 PM

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Sorry, but I feel like you are mixing up religion and what you are reading.
Honor killings have no place in Islam.

In Islam if a man and women are seen by four witnesses doing a sexual act, they are both punished and the only difference would be if one was married and the other not.  It makes no difference which one is female and which is male.  

Please read about Islam from good sources. There are many sites that have incorrect or false information on Islam.  Here are a good few sites for you to look through:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/u...ndingislam.html

http://www.beconvinced.com/index.htm

http://www.islam-guide.com/


That first bit that you posted about the Day of Judgement is a strange story that I have never read.  Where did you get it from?

Hello muslimsister, I was not saying honor killings have place in Islam, It had been mentioned in a previous post and I just commented my thoughts on it. I am sorry if I offended you. I found the information on this site here... editted by moderator -  My babies father celebrates Eid and showed me this page. Thank-you for the information links, I will be sure to check them over.

#22 Guest_chasiekaemami_*

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 01:33 PM

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Dear sis

I'm getting a little confused about a few things...

I'm sure your children are beautiful as all babies are and I doubt anyone blames them for their birth.  I'm sure they don't want to blame their relative either so they seem to be taking the easy way out and blaming you when it takes two to tango.  Where I'm getting confused each time something is addressed you add another person to the mix.

Out of wedlock relationships are not accepted in any religion that I'm aware of some tolerate the results better than others but none condone fornication.  If the mother is willing to accept you if you convert and teach your children or at least if she could accept a counter offer of promising they will be brought up as muslims, you have the choice to take her up on her offer and expect her to follow through or to reject it and go your own way.  The way they are treating you is not nice... Especially if the daughter cursed at you... That's way out of line.  Unfortunately we here can't make everything all right for you.  You chose to have a relationship with someone you have little in common with and from a culture you don't understand.  The childrens father is under obligation to support his children and be present in their lives but his family are under no such obligation and you have no obligation to to be involved in their lives and culture either.  You can not expect his entire family to change their ways, customs or beleifs to accommodate you or your boyfriends choices.  If you want them to be involved then its up to you to make some changes or leave them alone.  It is a shame that your children will be affected but you can't force the issue.

Here we can help you only by explaining our way of life and offering limited advise on how to handle situations, there is no way we can solve your problem for you... if you don't agree with what you learn here theres nothing we can do about it  and we will not apologise for our beliefs if you don't like them.  Inter-racial relationships are difficult under the best circumstances beleive me I know.  I wish you the best and hope everything will work out better for you and your children.  Inshallah even if she can't bring herself to accept your out of wedlock relationship I hope she will soften towards her grand kids.  

By the way,  You are mistaken about going to jail for adultery in Canada... I live here too... Would be a good idea but if it was true then half of the politicians would be sitting in jail.  Adultery costs you in divorce court.  You can however go to jail for poligamy...  Last I heard though was it was under review and set to be put to the test after the question of gay marriage is settled one way or another.  I'm not sure but I think the arguement for plural marriage is being pushed by a group of  mormons.

Best wishes
Angie

biggrin.gif

You are always welcome to ask any questions you like no matter how trivial or large.  Can't promise you will always like the answers you get but we can promise that any answers will be honest and with good intent and to the best of our knowledge..
Hi there, I'm not adding people to the mix.. my babies father's family consists of his mother and two sisters, unfortunately his father passed away before we got involved together and I was unable to meet him. So they are part of the mix and if I had mentioned them in my first post it would have been a rather long one, lol.

Now as for his mother accepting me if I convert... Should I have to? She won't even consider budging herself to trying to be involved in my children's lives. I just don't see why I should have to change everything I stand for just to make one person happy. Why can't she meet me in the middle and set aside her differences and just TRY to get along? I don't expect any of them to change their culture or beliefs. I don't wish for that at all. Everyone is entitled to stand by what they believe in and carry on the way they wish. What I don't understand is how they seem to be holding grudges more then actually going by what they stand for. I have offered to learn about everything and whatnot but I do not think I should have to convert in order for people to accept me as a person. In my eyes we are ALL equal no matter what god made us. We are all here on earth together breathing the same air. Some chose to follow this and some to chose that. I chose this and they chose that but in the end we were all born the same way and will all die in the same way. One day our hearts all started beating and someday our hearts will stop.  You see... all im asking for is they put on a little blinder and just be a part of my boys lives. No matter how they were concieved they are here and they do exhist.. why pretend they don't for your own security of not feeling "ashamed". I do not consider my actions as "mistakes" as some say. My children are definitely not mistakes either.

Im not here to solve my problems, I came for advise and to get some insight on why things are the way they are. I am entitled to my opinion as are all of you. I also do not expect any apologies for anyones beliefs.. as i mentioned before everyone is entitled to have those as well. I too wish she could just soften up and be able to visit with her first and only grandchildren, she is truly missing out on alot of love she could be receiving from them. I have even told my babies father he could bring our boys home to see his mom without me there and she still won't allow it. I have given up trying to make things ok with the family for some time now but it still really interests me why it has to be this way. I thank you for your kind words and support Angie, Please forgive me if I came off a little strong in this post, I just wish all the best for my children. I am upset and heart broken for my boys and it seems there is nothing left for me to do... except enjoy my boys and forget about them ever having a whole family. Thank goodness my family is there for us.

Take Care smile.gif

#23 Guest_chasiekaemami_*

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 01:42 PM

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Dear sis

Arghhh he's a player too... Oh boy.  Not to be too nosey but did you know he was like this before you got involved with him or did he pretend to behave for a little while?  We have some relative who behave like that too.  I hate to tell you but both of them are either pushing 40 or well and truly into middle age and still behaving like teens with no sign of reforming.  Some men never grow up!!  

Angie

Haha, funny you mentioned "player" he's sooo just like one. He's very much into hiphop music and he fits the status to a T! I hadn't any idea of what he was like when I first met him, he was kind and caring and not a "player" at all. Things changed once I found out I was pregnant... In came the threats, lying and cheating. He is so busy with everything else in his life to even come see his children, it's been 3 weeks since. Doesn't sound much like something a "loving and caring father" would do like he claims that he is. Although he has been calling lately, everytime he does he ends up completely disrespecting me, which I don't particulairly like. I do give him credit for a few things though, don't get me wrong, he's a very generous person, he gave me my boys afterall. smile.gif

But I agree, He will never grow up!!!

#24 Sister_Nadira

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 01:59 PM

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Thank you for your support... Yes I am doing the best I can, I am a new mother and doing everything on my own for my children. I don't wish to force them into anything they don't want to do. I only attempted once to contact the family about this unfortunate situation. I know now it's a waste of time to try and get through to these people. I am only one person just trying to make things "right" and all I want is for everyone to be happy but they don't seem to share the same feelings.


Chasiekaemami, you're welcome, and here's hoping that whatever may come, it is good for you and your children.

#25 Blessed by Allah

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 05:14 PM

Assalaamu alaikum,

I am sorry for mentioning honor killings.  I only did it to show the extremity that some people go to to protect their family's honor.  Here in the west, family honor doesn't mean much, but on the other side of the world, the family name means so much.  It's easy for people in america and canada to accept adulterous relationships because they are common and out in the open, but it's not so common everywhere.  It happens, but it's hidden.  

I think the grandmother needs time.  It was probably quite a shock to her that her son got you pregnant, even if she knew of the relationship.  You might try mentioning to her that you are learning about Islam.  If she talks to you, ask her if she's willing to teach you more about Islam.  If she knows you want to learn, then it might be easier for her to accept the situation.

#26 nisaa

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Posted 23 March 2005 - 07:01 PM

as salamu alaikum,
                              first of all welcome to this site. i have taken the time to read your posts and the others so i would like to add a few things.  first off i think you should try and just not worry about those people for now and focus on yourself. god has given everyone rules and guideline to live by in order to live peacefully and please him as well.  again as another sister mentioned islam is not a religion. it is a way you live.  there is no way around the fact that god had ordered us to not do certain things because it will cause pain and heartache in our lives. not having sex before marriage is something that is ment to prevent the woman from being forced to take care of children alone and prevent life long pain for these children. as well as many many other reasons that all make sense if you would just give it some thought. you cant take back the past and children arenot a mistake however you must realize that following certain rules which are gods rules not muslim rules most of this problem your experiencing would not be.

the quran teaches us that our children are a joy for us but also a test. we will be asked about what we did and didnt teach them about god and many other things.  so to learn about it islam is not for your baby fathers mother. its for you.  islam is not unfair to women nor is it some weird opinion that some people over there in the east have. i am american. i have made many mistakes before my reversion to islam.  islam protects us all male and female from so much.  i feel for you and your situation.

this woman i am sure just wants you to see that islam is so beautiful and she wants her grandchildren to know as well im sure it hurts her everyday.   ithink she should try and talk to you and teach you about islam but maybe she feels it would be a lost cause because who knows what her son has told her about you maybe true maybe lies. i know that men do that.    :roll:  

question you say they should love your kids despite the different beliefs. what do you believe if you dont mind me asking?  do you believe there is a god?  do you believe in heaven/ hell?  just curious.  because muslims  dont believe that god sent abraham and noah and moses and jesus muhamad etc to the people for modern day people to just decide oh its a new day we dont haveto follow no rules.  god is always watching he always has been. just because people change it doesnt mean his rules or expectations have changed.  it is something very serious for us. our livelyhood rests on pleasing allah and it dont matter what country town or city we live in.  

his mother knows this and she i think wrong in the ways she is handling it but i understand her anger.  however whats done is done, but for you not her read about islam try and be open. you never know what the future holds for you or for his family.  

he does sound very immature but you may become a muslim one day and he is like oh im so stupid and cry to allah and ask you to marry him.  or not we dont know but right now i think you should think about yourself and try to be the best mom you can be. i hope i didnt offend you. we all are here to help as much as we can
nisaa

#27 aishaniqabi

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Posted 24 March 2005 - 02:42 PM

Assalam Aleikum sisters,
Dear chasiekaemami,
  I am no expert in these matters but what I can tell you is in Islam, every child is born muslim, regardless of the parents' beliefs until the child reaches puberty.  Sisters please correct me if I am wrong on the age (and Allah knows best).  
I think it's unfair that the grandmother, and the father's side in general is treating the twins this way.  I do not mean to offend anyone but I think that the father has a lot of straightening up to do before he can disrespect you.  
I really hope you find the best advise and answers here and if it works out that the father's family refuses the twins permanently, then Allah is the best of all planners.  Whatever the outcome,hopefully it will be the best thing for your twins.  
Assalam Aleikum wa Rahmatullah,
Aisha a.k.a Ninja  :wink:

#28 Guest_DJ_*

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 09:20 PM

Salam alaikum,

I should probably not be the one to give advise about the Muslim
religon because I am only a new Muslima.  However, I am a mother
of an adult child.

First you seem to be demanding respect from another woman.  Respect
cannot be demanded, it can only be earned.  Second, in most (if
not all) religons of the world, premarital sex is adultry and a sin.
A much larger percentage of the world believes that premarital
sex is a sin therefore.  

You made a choice to sleep with a man before marriage, to a man
that (it sounds like from your posts) you knew was Muslim.  He
may not have been a practicing Muslim, but neither the less a Muslim.
That was your choice.  You cannot demand to anyone in the world
that they accept you because of your choices.  Character is a culmanation
of your actions and not your words.  If you believe that adultry is not
a sin and therefore you should be accepted by all men and the families
of the men who father a child with you, you should perhaps have sex
with men who have no religious background and whose families have
no religious background.  You made the choice to bring these innocent
children into this world without the covenent of marriage and the results
of such actions are not pleasant or easy.  I know that this may not
be easy to hear, but it is true (regardless of which religion is practiced).

Also from the feedback others have given you, you seem dead set against
listening or learning about Islam.  I for one have a hard time
understanding why any woman on this earth would not want a life as a
Muslima.  Read about life as a Muslima and what blessings she is given
and what her husband must provide for her.  Do not accept the sterotypes
that are filled with untruths of Islam.  This might give you something to
think about the quality of life you wish for yourself and your children.
Keep your mind and heart open while you search and if you wish pm me
I will be happy to correspond with you.

#29 April

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 04:09 AM

HI there chasiekaemami,

Nice to meet you.  Your situation is not uncommon unfortunately, it reminds me of a quote here that I read and it sooooo fits what has happened to you,

[align=center:98bf1cf5a7]ISLAM IS PERFECT THE MUSLIMS ARE NOT[/align:98bf1cf5a7]

I don't think you have done anything wrong, it is quite normal these days for people who are not practising any religion, to have relations before marriage to get to know one another before committing completely in marriage, more often than not pregnancy happens and before you know it there is a rising percentage of single mums.  Marriage is avoided these days, people are just not getting marriage anymore, it is now consider very old fashioned and unneccessary to actually marry.  Of course as the sisters have said and as you probably already knew ISLAM forbids relations outside marriage to the muslims, there is great Wisdom in this though, I will explain after, God willing.  Alot of people see ISLAM forbidding so many things but it is not without reason or purpose and this issue of no relations outside of marriage is a very important one to understand.

So this boy happens to be MUSLIM, now that doesn't say much, the word Muslim covers a wide scope of people and there are certain acts that will take a person outside the fold of ISLAM where he is no longer Muslim and he may not even know about it, NOT everyone who claims to be MUSLIM is actually living the life that GOD has prescribed in the Holy Qur'an nor do they all follow the perfect example of the Last Prophet to mankind, peace be upon him.  I just wanted to point out that just because he says he is Muslim HE is in no WAY or FORM representing the ISLAM and the LAWS Of GOD in the Holy Qur'an.  So from what you have said about him, I would not connect him or his family in anyway with the religion of ISLAM.....

PRACTISING MUSLIMS:
1. don't lie, cheat or steal
2. don't have relations outside of marriage DON'T EVEN LOOK twice at women or mix with them in ANY WAY MANNER OR FORM
3. don't take from the religion what suits and leave the rest
4. certainly don't abandon pregnant women

This boy has big problems it seems to me there is alot of culture coming into play with him and his family, I suggest you leave it and get on with your own journey.  ISLAM is way above what he has presented to you, I hope that God Willing you will be patient with us here to learn more about the truth of ISLAM.  

I myself reverted to ISLAM almost 7 years ago, so I can understand EXACTLY where you are coming from.  It is so sad that you have experienced this I really feel for you, but you know what?  Nothing happens without a reason, everything happens for a reason, just we maynot know yet what it is......but soon, GOD willing, soon, everything will be clear and we will understand why certain things happened to us and why we had to go through that.

To the issue of marriage in ISLAM.  Women in ISLAM have a very important position, they are to be protected in everyway, their rights need to be looked after and we have many rights.  A woman in ISLAM is not a toy to be used and thrown away, she has every right to be treated as she deserves and that is with respect.  Women cannot just be taken as girlfriends to be displayed and then disgarded once they are no longer needed.  We are not to be seen as an asset to men whereby our bodies and looks are seen as an asset for a man and he can show his asset to his friends.  We are seen as jewels in ISLAM, priceless jewels, now where are you going to keep your most priced and precious jewels?  Somewhere safe right?.....Women in ISLAM are protected by the laws of GOD in the HOLY QUR'AN, we cannot be "tested out" before marriage, a man cannot even see our beauty before marriage, he must marry us on account of our good character and religion, he has no right to touch us in any way before we marry.

In this way the woman is protected, her body mind and soul is protected from every wolf, All Praise is due to GOD!!  So after marriage the woman has many rights.  Of course she has her responsibilities with rights always comes responsibility but her role and respnsibility suite her nature and instinct.  I am sure you now as a mother of twins can relate to what I am talking about, the role of motherhood, it is so important and we as women we fit this role of bearing kids and looking after them as we are the ones who best fit this role due to our makeup our very instinct.  Don't you agree?  Don't you just love being a Mum?....Now the man on the other hand has another role he must provide for the family, he must support teh family financially and everyway he can.  It is up to him to provide in that way for the wife and kids.  So contrary to your experience of men running away from resonsibility, the man after marriage has a very big resonsibility.

In the Holy Qur'an GOD says that when a man marries a woman he is being given a Trust, like a precious thing that he has to look after in the best way he can.  Like I was saying before about the jewell......this is what women are.....precious jewels to be treasured.  In Islam we believe in the Day of Judgement and on that Day GOD shall ask men who marriage what they did with their "jewell" how did they look after it, how did they treasure it.  Muslim men are mindful of this and they are always striving for that day when their trust will be returned to it's OWNER....

Women in ISLAM find great freedom and protection in marriage......We are put into a very important position in marriage.  Muslim men...PRACTISING muslim men respect women and realise what each one has as resopnsibilities, the man has the greatest responsibility.

I would love to write more but it might get too long..... smile.gif

I hope to hear from you, use the opportunity to ask all your q's about ISLAM ...... and remember....ISLAM IS PERFECT.....the muslims aren't!!

Regards,

Umbilal

#30 Ameeraana

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 04:40 AM

Peace,

   I must clear something up that could be misunderstood

[quote]Also, in Islam, it is very bad for women (and men too, but especially women

  In Islam it is just as bad if a man commits zina (adultery, premarital sex) as if a woman does it.  But in many [b]cultures it is worse for a woman to do so while people will turn the other cheek if a man does so.  This cultural belief happens in many cultures, and not only amongst Muslims.

********************************

  The sad thing here is that this man's family may very well be thinking so low of you and not wanting anything to do with you when they could be having a big chance of trying to interact with you and teach you about Islam and then you may come to accept it and raise your children as Muslims.   But no, they just flat out refuse to want anything to do with you. And them being Muslims you are seeing what they do and how they act and maybe start to believe that this is something Islamic.  

   a Muslim is still a person who makes mistakes and sins and doesn't understand all the teachings in the Qur'an. A Muslim learns Islam for the rest of their lives.  The problem is, some people mix their cultures with Islam and sometimes they take precedent over cultural practices even if it goes against Islam.  And also, even if its not about culture, a Muslim may not have learned to be patient, or to forgive.  

   How this family is treating you and your children is probably a mix of both-- a cultural issue where family "honor" is most important-- it can be so bad to the extent that a family will absolutely not allow their son or daughter to marry a certain family because of their family name because of a mistake one or some people in that family has made, thus shaming the whole family, or even allowing them to marry outside their culture as it could be considered as dishonoring the family.  So in this case, that their son has commited sex prior to Islam and had children could tarnish their family name.  When everyone is responsible for their own sins people sometimes look down on a whole family because one of their members has done something wrong.  

   It is ashame that they are judging you so badly when it is their son who is a Muslim who is out there doing wrong and doing things with non-Muslims who don't know what Islam is.  You are not Muslim and you have grown up in a society where pre-marital sex is common and probably considered normal.  You know, even before I was Muslim I remember at work there were some really religious Christian ladies who were once talking about how it is such a shame to live with a boyfriend and have sex before marriage and I totally didn't agree with the things they were saying.  Then later on I became Muslim and over time with all the learning I have done I understand what they were talking about now.  But you know, it takes lots of patience to not judge and try hard to teach another person a whole new set of beliefs.  Its even the same with different cultures, and I am even including non-Muslim cultures.  One person from one culture could marry into a whole different other one and have the hardest time getting used to new things and also be subjected to harsh criticism for not being able to follow their "norm".

  The people who have come into your life so far.. this man and his family, could just be not patient and understanding and forgiving enough, and also culturally may be trying to protect their family honor to want anything to do with you.  And worst of all, to even think so low of innocent children, is just so so sad!!

   I hope you stick around with us here and really do learn a lot about Islam.

Ameera

#31 Peace4all

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 06:38 AM

As Salamu Alaikum

Welcome Chasiekaemami I am impressed by the great response to ur question. As one sister clearly stated

Islam is perfect the Muslims are not

It is very sad that the Muslims who have settled in the west changed the Islamic teachings to suit the culture of their new homes. Astaghfirullah!
If we read Islamic history we will find that the early Muslims changed the cultures in their new countries in line with Islam.

What I find so hard to accept is that the people accept adultery as something morally correct yet they cannot accept the concept of Muslim men having 4 wives whom he can love, support and cherish in a healthy atmosphere.

Sad Very Sad

#32 fragrant

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 03:11 AM

QUOTE(chasiekaemami)

Also I have tried to think of this situation through her eyes and I just simply cannot. Wether I believed in any certain religion or culture I could never act the manner she is. .


Hello there Chasie;

Chasie, I am very sure that this is EXACTLY as well.

She is way wrong, perhaps, to not be accepting of you- but [b]by the same token
, you are in no way better accepting of her either. You, just like her, are "guilty as charged" :shock:  

I think one of the best joys of being an adult is to realise the fact that no two person is the same- and that is [b]OKAY :idea: .

_Fragrant_

#33 Sister Kamillah

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 12:17 PM

asalamu alaikum,

The pakistani culture is very difficult  and since you are not muslim and are not a Pakistani, it will be very difficult for his mother to accept you. If you were a muslim and practicing it would be easier for her to accept you, but since you are not it will be almost impossible for her. If his mother is cultural she probably was even expecting her son to marry within there own caste.  But since she has said she would accept you, if you became a muslim, she may be more religious and practicing.

The children are not to blame for in islam children are born sinless and since there father is muslim, they are muslim also and should be raised as muslims. This is the saddest part that I see without the contact with there Grandmother, there will not be any influence from a muslim.

Zina (sex outside of marriage between two single individuals) is a sin and the mother-in-law probably is having a very difficult time thinking that her son could have done such a thing. And yes, she feels this has brought her family shame and if people find out it will give the family a bad name. (this may seem small to you, but it is very difficult for his mother and people in her culture will talk about her family. which may bring her much distress and heartache.please try to understand her position and how this has hurt her so much) And you are the reminder of this sin that her son was involved in. She may feel if you do become a muslim that Allah will forgive you all your sins and she would feel more comfortable accepting you into her family then.  I would advise you to read about the religion of islam and to understand the beliefs. Insha-Allah I hope that you will embrace islam and become a Muslim.

I am not here to judge you, but I wanted to give you the prespectives on why the mother-in-law may feel this way toward you.

feel free to pm me if you need any more advise or want to understand the pakistani culture. I know this culture well, for I am married to a pakistani and have view this culture from the inside.

kamilllah

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 07:15 PM

Salamua leikum!

PLEASE visit this web site.

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1.htm   - read from the begining to the end.


Inshaalah, u will find it interesting,and helpful!

Aishah( i reverted to Islam 4 month ago, with God`s help,alhamdulillah!)

#35 Apricot

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 07:31 PM

As-salamu Alaykum AishahSalam,

and welcome to the site.

#36 sarah_anisah

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 08:40 PM

Assalamu Alaikum

[marq=left:211317f88c][b]Welcome to the forum AishahSalam and congratulations on your shahada :mrgreen:

InshaAllah you will like it here and we can all learn from eachother :wink:
I really like the link that you posted to the Brief illustrated guide to Islam, I recommend this to anyone.

I have sent you a PM sister.

Sarah

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Posted 19 April 2005 - 02:56 PM

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Also I have tried to think of this situation through her eyes and I just simply cannot. Wether I believed in any certain religion or culture I could never act the manner she is. .


Hello there Chasie;

Chasie, I am very sure that this is EXACTLY as well.

She is way wrong, perhaps, to not be accepting of you- but [b]by the same token
, you are in no way better accepting of her either. You, just like her, are "guilty as charged" :shock:  

I think one of the best joys of being an adult is to realise the fact that no two person is the same- and that is [b]OKAY :idea: .

_Fragrant_

Well actually! I am accepting of her... if you had read everything I wrote you would have noticed I said WE ARE ALL THE SAME... the only thing I do not accept is she wont even budge to any degree!




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