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Niqab and Dress on Hajj


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#1 Guest_musaafirah_*

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 06:19 PM

Asalaamu Alaykum,

Inshaallah one of you good sisters could help clarify this for me. Ok, I have always had some confusion over the 'covering face' on hajj thing. I hear a lot of people say you are just supposed to uncover however I have found this view:

QUOTE
66- The woman is forbidden to don tailored accessories for the face and hands. She is not permitted to cover her face with a niqaab, burqa or yashmak (all three are face veils that are tied behind the head). Rather, she is permitted to veil using other things, such as [by extending] an ordinary headcover [over her face]. Also, while she is not allowed to wear gloves, she is required to cover them before non-Mahram men (i.e., non-related men she is allowed to marry) by entering the hands within her gown. ‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Umar, may Allaah be pleased with him, related: "The Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, said,'The woman in a state of Ihraam must wear neither the Niqaab nor gloves.'"  [Al-Bukhaari]

Some women mistakenly believe that it is permissible for them in the state of Ihraam to uncover their faces before non-Mahram men. This is erroneous, for it is, instead, obligatory to veil the face. This is substantiated by the following proofs:

* Faatimah bint Al-Munthir, may Allaah have mercy upon her, recounted: "We used to cover our faces when we were in the state of Ihraam with Asmaa’ bint Abu Bakr."[Maalik, Saheeh]
* Asmaa’ bint Abu Bakr, may Allaah be pleased with her, herself, mentions:"We used to cover our faces [in Hajj] in front of [non-related] men. We also used to comb our hair when we were in Ihraam."[Al-Haakim and Ath-Thahabi, Saheeh –Al-Albaani]
* It was narrated by ‘Aa’ishah, may Allaah be pleased with her, that she said: "The woman in a state of Ihraam is permitted to wear whatever types of clothes she wants, unless it is scented with Wars (type of perfume) or saffron. She is not allowed to wear the burqa or don a [face] veil; rather, she can draw her garment over her face if she wills."[Al-Bayhaqi, Saheeh]

This report asserts that women are forbidden from wearing face veils that she ties behind her head; not from covering itself, as stated by Shaykhul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah, and Ibn Al-Qayyim, may Allaah have mercy upon them.

As for the Hadeeth that reads: "A man's Ihraam is in his head and a woman's Ihraam is in her face", it is inauthentic. Ibn Al-Qayyim, may Allaah have mercy upon him, declared such a Hadeeth as false.

Many women who perform ‘Umrah uncover their faces whilst in a state of Ihraam and after it, so much so, that this practice has become prevalent in Al-Masjid Al-Haraam. Based on the aforementioned proofs, as well as others, a woman must know that doing that in front of non-Mahram men is prohibited in the Sharee’ah. [If she has done it], she is required to repent to Allaah The Almighty and cover her face before those who are not related to her.


Likewise, I found the following view from Shaykh Al Albaani:

QUOTE
The rites of hajj and umrah (p.12)

It is permissible for the woman to cover her face with something like a khimaar or jilbaab which she throws over her head and it sits on her face. What is correct is that it can touch her face but she cannot tie it to her face. This is similar to what Ibn Taymeeyah-rahimahullah said'


So, just to clarify I am not asking for a debate over whether you can or can't cover. What I am trying to understand is HOW the covering is done of the face. Like how would I dress in this way, what would you wear (or what should I buy) to come from my head to cover my face and not be tied on? And you would wear this the entire time you are in ihram then? Inshaallah one of you sisters can elaborate. If you can find a picture that would help wink.gif.

#2 Ola

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 07:39 PM

Assalaamu alaikum,

What most women here do is they use a black shayla scarf to cover their face, either the one they're already wearing or another one over. Something that is not too thick and not too thin so that they can see through and at the same time they're face is not exposed.

Others buy something that looks like a two piece niqab with a string except the there is no eyehole. So, it's basically two light black layers that you tie on your head. Some people prefer not to do that because of the opinion that nothing should be tied.

The point is that you don't wear something designed as a niqaab with an eyehole. Just like men cannot wear something designed to fit their body (shirt, pants, etc), we cannot wear something designed to fit our face. Some women make the mistake of wearing a niqaab and then covering their eye with the other layer. That is wrong, because they're still wearing a niqaab.

Yes, we wear that during ihraam only. Honestly, it can be quite uncomfortable (at least for me), just as most men find their two pieces of cloth uncomfortable. It bothers me because I feel like I can't see properly (even though it's not thick) and with the hot sticky weather it makes me hotter. (But, that's just me). One advantage I find from it is makes you feel like you're in your own world and thus, you're able to concentrate on making du'aa and dhikr without your eyes wandering.  

As for how long one wears it; if one is making umrah they only wear it from the time they enter into a state of ihraam until they finish the umrah (i.e. make tawaaf, Sai, and cut your hair). That would depend on how long that takes you. Of course, only when you're around men.

For actual hajj, it's a longer time. It starts when you assume ihraam on the 8th day in mina, then ninth day in Arafah. On the 10th day, (without going into all the fiqhi details) if you finish certain actions then you can come out of that state of ihraam and wear your niqaab.    
        
Covering your face like that for such a long time can be really annoying. Alhamdulilah, here hajj groups really accommodate the women and give them the privacy they need. So, they have tents and bathrooms all to themselves and don't even need to wear hijaab unless they leave the tent. However, I've heard from people who went with groups from the west and other countries that they don't give women that much privacy.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope I have clarified things for you. Generally, it's very hard to picture hajj if you haven't made hajj before. Hearing people's experiences, watching videos, and so on doesn't tell you much. Being there is a whole different thing.  

If you have any other questions please feel free to ask.

#3 Ola

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 07:52 PM

Assalaamu alaikum,

Here is what I am talking about: http://muhajabat.wordpress.com/2010/05/10/...mirate-gashwah/

or like this: http://muhajabat.wordpress.com/2009/10/28/...ab-saudi-style/

#4 Ola

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 02:41 PM

Assalaamu alaikum,

QUOTE
how would i finish my hajj with a niqab that isn't fixed on without losing my patience?

Honestly sister, this issue (of how to cover the face during hajj) is probably one of the most minor things you can get tested with in Hajj (if you can even consider a test). Hajj is full of tests, they come unexpectedly and everyone gets tested differently. You need loads and loads of patience, and I think most people lose their patience at some point.

The amazing thing about hajj is despite all the hardships you go through and the times you feel like you can't make it to the finish line, once you're done you experience this immense sense of relief, joy and happiness and you really really long to go again and again. That great feeling one gets after they've completed Hajj makes them forget all the difficulty that was involved. I don’t think anyone ever regretted making Hajj no matter what they went through.

If a sister is going on Hajj, then I suggest she experiments with different outfits until she is comfortable with one or even more than one. This is a whole different topic.


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Posted 21 June 2010 - 05:39 PM

Asalaamu Alaykum,

I want to come back and respond better but I just wanted to say first, may Allah reward you sis Ola. You really cleared things up for me, excellent post (as usual)!

#6 Ola

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 06:44 PM

Assalaamu alaikum,

Wa iyyaki musaafirah.

UmmKhalid, yes we should try to our best. But, afterall, we are human and we will make mistakes. As for acceptance, only Allah knows whether a person's Hajj has been accepted or not.

#7 marshmallow

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 11:25 PM

assalamu alaykum,

i used to get a shaylah and pin it to the top of my regular scarf so it just flops over my head and over my face. I take my niqab with me and put it on afterwards. Unfortunately there are lots of starrey men in kabba so its hard to go there without veil if you are used to wearing the niqab. We have to remember so many of the people there are shia, so i cant say all the starrey men are muslim.

#8 *mariam*

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 04:03 PM

Asalamu ALikum warahmatu Allah

QUOTE
We have to remember so many of the people there are shia, so i cant say all the starrey men are muslim.


Please be careful with statements like this. Not all of them hold beliefs that take them out of the fold of Islam. More so, such statements are not for us to make, otherwise, there would be much fitna.

#9 marshmallow

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 10:35 PM

QUOTE(*mariam* @ Jul 4 2010, 07:03 PM) View Post
Asalamu ALikum warahmatu Allah

QUOTE
We have to remember so many of the people there are shia, so i cant say all the starrey men are muslim.


Please be careful with statements like this. Not all of them hold beliefs that take them out of the fold of Islam. More so, such statements are not for us to make, otherwise, there would be much fitna.




If you know anything of their belief system then you wouldnt say that. they dont belive in the quran as it is revealed for a start. If you prefer to see them as muslims for the sake of unity, read history. Shiasm is something all muslims should be aware of. I know these days its all about unity and loving, mono faith worship, but when they dont even say the same shahada as sunnis how can you classify them as muslims? Do you classify NOI as muslims? or is it the actual group itself that has to decide on whether it is muslim or not?



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Posted 05 July 2010 - 09:46 AM

Asalaamu Alaykum,

Given her history I HIGHLY doubt that sister mariam was advising unity on misguidance. But there are a very small number of shia such as the 'zaidiyyah', i think, who are still considered Muslims by the scholars though misguided. Those believe everything like sunnis EXCEPT prefer that Ali would have been the khalifah before Abu Bakr ra. Also, there are shia who are only shia because that is the only thing they have ever known and been taught, out of ignorance, not knowing anything about sunni Islam.

Sure, if I know of a shia who is the extreme rafidi, with all that it entails I despise it as much as the next person, but I have to ask, are there not better things to occupy one's time with deenwise than worrying about that. They will deal with their rabb.

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 02:54 PM

Asalaamu Alaykum,

UmmKhalid, there is a difference when it comes to people who believe la ilaha ila allah. Is someone living in a rural village in iran, who cannot read with no access to knowledge, who believes in Allah alone and his messenger, who prays 5 times a day and fasts, who is depending on what is taught to the village by a shia cleric who KNOWS better and is misleading the people the same as the cleric himself? Or the same as a non-muslim living round here who knows muslims and knows what they believe in? Correct me if I am wrong, but I remember reading from a major scholar that people (such as the shia) who have know knowledge of sunni islam and no opportunity and who are following a 'scholar' are not accountable inshaallah, rather the one who is the 'leader' instructing them is responsible for them. And allahu alam.

Edited by musaafirah, 05 July 2010 - 02:54 PM.


#12 marshmallow

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 06:00 PM

QUOTE(musaafirah @ Jul 5 2010, 05:54 PM) View Post
Asalaamu Alaykum,

UmmKhalid, there is a difference when it comes to people who believe la ilaha ila allah. Is someone living in a rural village in iran, who cannot read with no access to knowledge, who believes in Allah alone and his messenger, who prays 5 times a day and fasts, who is depending on what is taught to the village by a shia cleric who KNOWS better and is misleading the people the same as the cleric himself? Or the same as a non-muslim living round here who knows muslims and knows what they believe in? Correct me if I am wrong, but I remember reading from a major scholar that people (such as the shia) who have know knowledge of sunni islam and no opportunity and who are following a 'scholar' are not accountable inshaallah, rather the one who is the 'leader' instructing them is responsible for them. And allahu alam.




wa alaykum asalam, but the shia that is in the haram is not in a rural village in iran who cannot read or with no access to knowledge, who believes in allah alone(12 imams - ?)and his messenger, who prays 5 times a day (cursing the sahaba during it) and fasts, who is depending on what is taught to the village by a shia cleric who knows better and is misleading the poeple, is he?





Shiasm is not islam - regardless of whether that person has no access to knowledge. Their religion is twarted with shirk and aposty. They do not hold the sunni as believers in return. Look at what iran does to the minority sunni population. And if we are talking about the very small population of shia ziadi in yemen, they also are not living in a small irani village. Guidence is from allah with a sincere innention.



#13 muslimsister

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 06:24 PM

Assalaam alaikum

Ruling on praying in congregation with a Raafidi
We are two sunnis and one bohri (Shi'a) at work. Since I hear from almost everybody that Shi'a are not muslims, I told the other two people that I wanted to lead the prayer, and both of them agreed. Should we be joining with the bohra brother to make a congregation of three and hope to gain more thawab from Allah Subhanahu-wata'ala or should we pray alone hoping that Allah will reward us for our concerns. Please reply to this as soon as possible.

Praise be to Allaah.  

If this Shi’i believes in the tenets (‘aqeedah) of Shi’ism, such as regarding the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) as kaafirs, hating Abu Bakr and ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them) and other corrupt beliefs that they hold, then the truth should be explained to him. If he gives up (these false beliefs), then he can pray with you. If he does not give up those beliefs after you explain the truth to him, then he should not pray with you, and you two Sunnis should pray together. But if he thinks that he is a Shi’i (and he does not follow their kufr beliefs), and he loves Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, and thinks well of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them), then he can pray with you and is not regarded as a kaafir.

Shaykh Dr Khaalid ibn ‘Ali al-Mushayqih
islam-qa.com

#14 *mariam*

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 06:47 PM

Asalamu Alikum warahmatu Allah

Sister marshmallow, under the classification of Shi'a, there are soooo many sects and groups. Some have extreme beliefs that are no where close to Islam, while others are quite close to Sunnis. That's why I said we cannot go around declaring individuals as Kuffar, without first knowing their beliefs. The scholars have already done the task of generally classifying their groups in terms of which ones committed kufr and which ones are fasiq.

Once again, I'll repeat that making takfeer is not for us laymen.
It is not hidden from us what has resulted in some young zealous Muslims taking the lead in making takfeer. May Allah keep us all steadfast.

#15 Ola

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 08:02 PM

Assalaamu alaikum,

Information about the Shi’ah

We are in urgent need of information about the differences between the Sunnis and
Shi’is. We hope that you can explain something about their beliefs?.


Praise be to Allaah.

The Shi’ah have many sects. Some of them are kaafirs who worship ‘Ali and call upon him, and they worship Faatimah, al-Husayn and others. Some of them say that Jibreel (peace be upon him) betrayed the trust and the Prophethood belonged to ‘Ali, not to Muhammad. There are also others among them, such as the Imamiyyah – the Raafidi Ithna ‘Ashari – who worship ‘Ali and say that their imams are better than the angels and Prophets.

There are many groups among them; some are kaafirs and some are not kaafirs. The mildest among them are those who say that ‘Ali was better than the three (Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthmaan). The one who says this is not a kaafir but he is mistaken, because ‘Ali was the fourth, and Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq, ‘Umar and ‘Uthmaan were better than him. If a person prefers him over them then he is erring and is going against the consensus of the Sahaabah, but he is not a kaafir. The Shi’ah are of different levels and types. The one who wants to know more about that may refer to the books of the scholars, such as al-Khutoot al-‘Areedah by Muhibb al-Deen al-Khateeb [available in English under the same title, translated by Abu Ameenah Bilaal Philips], Manhaaj al-Sunnah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, and other books that have been written on this topic, such as al-Shi’ah wa’l-Sunnah by Ihsaan Ilaahi Zaheer [also available in English translation] and many other books which explain their errors and evils – we ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound.

Among the most evil of them are the Imamis, Ithna ‘Asharis and Nusayris, who are called al-Raafidah because they rejected (rafadu) Zayd ibn ‘Ali when he refused to disavow the two Shaykhs Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, so they went against him and rejected him. Not everyone who claims to be a Muslim can be accepted as such. If a person claims to be a Muslim, his claim should be examined. The one who worships Allaah alone and believes in His Messenger, and follows that which he brought, is a real Muslim. If a person claims to be a Muslim but he worships Faatimah or al-Badawi or al-‘Aydaroos or anyone else, then he is not a Muslim. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. Similarly, anyone who reviles the faith, or does not pray, even if he says that he is a Muslim, is not a Muslim. The same applies to anyone who mocks the faith or mocks the prayer or zakaah or fasting or Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or who disbelieves in him, or says that he was ignorant or that he did not convey the message in full or convey the message clearly. All such people are kaafirs. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound.


Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz (28/257).

#16 marshmallow

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 08:18 PM

assalamu alaykum,

mariam, where did i point out an individual and say 'KAFIR!', you are really determined to defend the shia so khair inshallah. If you read the fatwa that ola printed it can be read from 2 ways. I would personnally think that that shia has corrupted belief unless they proved otherwise, because the majority of them do. there are a minority of shia, mostly from iraq that have the belief that corresponds with sunnis, but over praise ali.

#17 *mariam*

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 08:34 PM

Asalamu Alikum warahmatu Allah

It isn't determination to defend the shi'a. It applies to any astray group. It takes a lot of knowledge and understanding of their beliefs to be able to come to such conclusions. While there are many shi'a groups that fall into Kufr, the issue is not about shi'as only. It is about making it seem easy for us to judge who is kaffir and who is not from those who declare themselves as Muslims. It might not stop on shi'as only, it might spread to other groups who are perhaps less in evil than shi'as.

I would not want this forum to be a place where sisters are only concerned with declaring others as kaffir. Sorry, but I have seen what dwelling on this issue and falling into takfeer has done to some people, may Allah protect us all and keep us on the straight path.

#18 lowri_mai

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 06:38 AM

----------------------------------------

Edited by lowri_mai, 22 November 2010 - 02:12 PM.


#19 marshmallow

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 04:34 PM

assalamu alaykum,

personnally i have studied into the shia doctrine and found that, yes there are varying degrees, but some of the fatwas that have been made, are short of sick.
QUOTE
at the end of the day shias would not be allowed on hajj/umrah if they were all upon kufr, other sects/cults such as the Ismailis, Bohras et al are not allowed on hajj or umrah because their beliefs and practices clearly take them outside of Islam


seems its the end of the day......Whos says ismailis are not allowed on hajj? Even noi are allowed to mecca, so this is not a yard stick to measure if they are muslim or not

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 11:47 PM

Asalaamu Alaykum,

What are you even debating? Yes, some of their beliefs are beyond sick, NO ONE here is arguing about that (not sure if I misunderstood that part 'fatwas have been made, are short of sick', if thats a british turn of phrase or not  and if I am misunderstanding what you are saying there LOL). All they are saying is some shia beliefs constitute kufr and some do not. Takfir, especially of individuals, should be left to the major scholars. It is not right to imply that shia in general are not muslim unless you are pointing out a specific sect that has been declared by the ulema to be outside of Islam. Generally speaking we say some of them are muslim and some of them are not. And Allah knows best.




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