95 replies to this topic

[DemaChanRas]

As Salaamu Alaikum,
    
   On the topic of if it's permissable to live in a non-Muslim country, well let's look at this.

One of the big things is practicing of religion.  We cant move to a country where we arent allowed to practice Islam.  ok.

Now let's look at soooo many things in the ME. I'm not saying that the people are bad, everyone is an individual, but from my own personal experience and opinion I feel that there is a very very big taboo to change and to have different opinions and interpertations of Islam.  If it's not the norm you can put under heat.  If you say the slightest thing that may seem to be against Islam (but is it not) you can be put under heat.

I recently watched a documentary and a Muslim man talked about how his friend was thrown in jail (in KSA) because he was "encouraging" pre-marital relations.  What the man talked about was how courtship is very different in the West and that none of his students would experience this type of love but will instead have another type of love (fall in love after a marriage is arranged).  His own students turned him in and YES, he was prosecuted and recieveed like a 4 year sentence along with lashes.


I'm a free minded person.  Some people may agree with me, some people may not.  I have many views that have been mistaken as anti-Muslim or anti-Islam... when the issue had to deal with the culture of the people (not Islam).


And that's another thing.... I feel that becuase culture is soooooo interwined with Islam in these countries, that it makes it even harder.  And an attack on a cultural practice can easily be taken as an attack on Islam (when the practice isnt even islamic).

I feel that Islam gives me a choice and gives me the right to interpert things.  

Since Islam is reletively new in the West, there isnt so much of a "culture plague" (where culture is soooo blended in and mistaken as Islam).   Inshallah we wont ever get one.... but who knows.

So personally I feel that I can practice Islam better in the West than in the ME.  Dont get me wrong... being a Musilm in the ME has its many many benefits.  Your surrounded by Muslims, and Islam practices  arent "wierd", etc etc.  I feel it's more "free" here.

salaam

[Badreya]

Salam alaikum, I recently talked to a Jew (who is a doctor and I asked him a few questions):
What is his nationality?
He told me he is an American-Israeli.
All Jews are given automatic citizenship to Israel!

Now that is something to think about! :idea:

We could learn a thing or two about unity.

[khadi1]

Assalamou aleikoum wa Rahmatoullah wa barakatou,

does a non muslim country automatically gives citizenship to the ones who have been there and working for years ??? NO...
It is true that muslim countries do not make it easy for muslims to emigrate to their countries...maybe once we all follow Islam the right way and repent , then maybe Allah will change our conditions and open doors for us......

[khadi1]

Assalamou aleikoum wa Rahmatoullah wa Barakatou,

here is one of the fatwas that I was referring to in an earlier post in this thread... i still have to find the one from Shaykh Bin Baz, Rahimahullah, who described exactly who and what are the conditions to live in a kuffaar country.....
but for the time being, this one will do..... :wink:

[marq=left:6835d21a60]     Question #13363: Can Muslims settle in kaafir countries for the sake of a better life?  

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=q...&QR=13363&dgn=4

Question :


I live in a western country, and I can practice my religion without much difficulty, praise be to Allaah

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.  

The basic principle is that it is not permissible for the Muslim to settle among the mushrikeen. This is indicated by evidence from the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and on the basis of common sense.  

In the Qur’aan, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): “In what (condition) were you?” They reply: “We were weak and oppressed on the earth.” They (angels) say: “Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?” Such men will find their abode in Hell — what an evil destination!”

[al-Nisa’ 4:97]

In the Sunnah, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2645; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

With regard to common sense, the Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen cannot carry out many of the rituals and visible acts of worship of Islam, in addition to the fact that he is exposing himself to temptation because of the permissiveness in those countries that is protected by their laws. The Muslim should not expose himself to temptations and trials.

This is if we look at the evidence of the Qur’aan and Sunnah without paying attention to what is really happening in Muslim countries and kaafir countries.“Especially since the Muslim countries are no longer very different from others with regard to adherence to the laws of Islam.” But this generalization is not correct. The Muslim countries are not all the same with regard to how closely or otherwise they adhere to the laws of Islam. Rather they vary in that, and even within one country, regions and cities may vary in that regard.

Similarly the kaafir countries are not all the same with regard to their permissiveness and moral laxity; they also vary in that regard. [/color] desires and temptations to be found there by taking the precautionary measures prescribed in sharee’ah.

There follow some comments of the scholars which support what we have said above:

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about this matter and he said: This is one of the most difficult issues nowadays because countries vary, as stated above, and because for some Muslims, if they go back to their homelands they will be persecuted for their religion whereas they are safe from that in the kaafir countries. But if we say that it is haraam for them to settle among the kuffaar, then where is the Islamic state that will accept them and allow them to settle there?! This is the meaning of what he said, may Allaah have mercy on him.

Zakariya al-Ansaari al-Shaafa’i said in his book Asna al-Mataalib (4/207):

It is obligatory to migrate from the kaafir lands to the Muslim lands for those who are able to do that, if they are unable to practise their religion openly.

Ibn al-‘Arabi al-Maaliki said: Hijrah (migration) means leaving dar al-harb [non-Muslim lands] and going to dar al-islam [Muslim lands]. This was obligatory at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and remains so after his time for those who fear for their lives. From Nayl al-Awtaar, 8/33, by al-Shawkaani.

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar said concerning the hadeeth, “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen”:
This is to be understood as referring to those who are not safe to practise their religion there. Fath al-Baari, commentary on hadeeth no. 2825

In al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (20/206) it says:

Dar al-harb refers to every place in which the rule of kufr prevails. One of the rulings that have to do with dar al-harb is hijrah (migration). With regard to migration from dar al-harb, the fuqaha’ divided people into three categories:

[b](a)   Those who are obliged to migrate: they are those who are able to migrate and who cannot practise their religion openly in dar al-harb. It is obligatory upon a female even if she does not have a mahram, if she thinks she will be safe when travelling, or if the risk of travelling is less than the risk of staying in dar al-harb…

( Those who are not obliged to migrate: they are those who are unable to do so, either because of sickness or because they are forced to stay in the kaafir land, or those who are weak, such as woman and children, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Except the weak ones among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way”

[al-Nisa’ 4:98]

© Those for whom migration is mustahabb but not obligatory: they include those who are able to migrate but are also able to practise their religion openly in dar al-harb. It is mustahabb for such a person to migrate so that he can participate in jihad and increase the numbers of the Muslims.

In a fatwa issued by the Standing Committee (12/50): One may also migrate from a mushrik land to another mushrik land that is less evil and where there is less danger to the Muslim, as some of the Muslims migrated from Makkah at the Prophet’s command to Abyssinia.
We ask Allaah to set the Muslims’ affairs straight.



Islam Q&A   www.islam-qa.com

________________________

[*mariam*]

Assalamu ALikum

jazak allah khair sister khadi for the fatwa.

sisters, it seems that some of us want things the easy way. for example you want to make the hijra, but be able to get education, citizenship, etc., right away.
Have we lost the sunnah of our beloved Prophet sallallahu alayhe wasallam??

he made hijrah to Madinah with nothing, and I mean NOTHING. not only him, but the rest of his followers who made it with him. they did not have a personal home to stay in when they arrived, and accepted staying with the ansar in their own homes, and did not complain subhanallah.
so we must accept that in a hijrah, one must give up some things and nothing will be perfect.

finally I have noticed how sometimes, may Allah forgive us, we are so quick to speak out against Muslim countries, and yet so quick to stand up for non-Muslim countries. may Allah guide us.

salam

Mariam

[*mariam*]

Assalamu ALikum

posted twice sorry

[Badreya]

Salam alaikum sister,

Quote

finally I have noticed how sometimes, may Allah forgive us, we are so quick to speak out against Muslim countries, and yet so quick to stand up for non-Muslim countries. may Allah guide us.

Non-Muslim countries give citizenship to people after certain requirements are met.
There are many countries that will NEVER give it to you if you are born there, and your 5 past grandfathers have lived there.
That is just plain outrageous and offensive.

Listen - the real problem is that Muslim countries should not have boarders, there should be one leader, and smaller leaders to overlook other areas.  The leaders should be surrounded by religious men who look out for the people and Allah's laws.

Until that day comes I beleive I have the right to complain as much as I want about how wrong all our systems are and as a Muslim in America I am a guest, so I should behave like a good one.

[DemaChanRas]

Mariam,
  As Salaamu Alaikum

Quote

sisters, it seems that some of us want things the easy way. for example you want to make the hijra, but be able to get education, citizenship, etc., right away.
Have we lost the sunnah of our beloved Prophet sallallahu alayhe wasallam??

I dont see how wanting edcation, citizenship, etc is loosing in the deen.  The specific countries that the sisters are talking about are the countries that hav outragous laws in order to attain citizenship, where generation after generation are still denied citizenship because they may not be ethnically mixed with the nationals.  And citizenship is very important in order to attain many important things.  Such as medical care, proper schooling, and government assitance. It's nothing about "I want to be a citizen just to be a citizen"

Quote

he made hijrah to Madinah with nothing, and I mean NOTHING. not only him, but the rest of his followers who made it with him. they did not have a personal home to stay in when they arrived, and accepted staying with the ansar in their own homes, and did not complain subhanallah.
so we must accept that in a hijrah, one must give up some things and nothing will be perfect.

Now I'm not good with my arabic.  and I dont hear hijrah very much, but I think your talking about hajj.... or something dealign with hajj.  Well that is good that if someone can make hijrah being poor and with nothing.  But that doesnt mean everyone else can and is able to.

I live in the USofA.  I dont have money to buy a plane ticket, neither do I have money to buy a ship ticket.... what should I do?  Swim across the Atlantic?

i hear about people walking, hitchhiking, etc to go to hajj.  MaShallah.  But it's most likely most of those people are from nearby countries.  Like North Africa.  Many of us are far away from Saudi Arabia.   We arent in that type of shape to even try it.

I think that one thing we should remember, and just leave it like this... is that Allah said that we must make hajj if we are financially and physically able to.  If we cant make it, we cant make it.  But sister it's not becuase of our "laziness" or lack of deen.  It's because right now we just cant, and we cant find a way too.

Quote

finally I have noticed how sometimes, may Allah forgive us, we are so quick to speak out against Muslim countries, and yet so quick to stand up for non-Muslim countries. may Allah guide us.

If my Muslim sister or brother is doing wrong then I wont justify their actions.

salaam

[khadi1]

[quote="Badreya"]Salam alaikum sister,
[quote]

Listen - the real problem is that Muslim countries should not have boarders,.
quote]

Assalamou aleikoum wa Rahmatoullah wa Barakatou,

To be fair to the muslim countries, who made the borders they have now ???? the imperialist and colonialist countries, mainly France, Germany, Italy , Britain...... I mean the bedouins used to  roam freely in the desert.. well, they cannot do it now without showing passport and travel documents... whose fault is it ???Who separated Palestine ???  Who separated Pakistan and India and Kashmir ??? Isn't it the British????
Sure, the muslim leaders were corrupt at some stage, especially in Andalusia...  they just wanted the power and the fame.... but still...

As for the leaders being surrounded by religious men who can advise them and look out for people interests,  in all centuries you have had scholars who advised their leaders.... and most of these scholars, at some stage of their lives, ended up in jail.....
Someone asked the noble shaykh Bin Baz, Rahimahullah, why the scholars did not advise the rulers.... he replied in all simplicity that, was he there (the questionner) 24 hrs a day to know if the scholars did not advise the rulers ??? (or words to this effect) (I do not have the source of this quote, but I'll find it Inshallah.)

Again, it is not because we do not see something that this thing is not being done....

[MissPink]

Assalamu alaikom

Dear Sis Demachanras... Hijrah means migration like the migration of the Prophet (peace be upon him) from Makkah to Madina.

[Badreya]

Salam alaikum, I love this piece of literature.
It's from the English Patient, - a woman is injured, dying alone in a cave.  The cave is in the desert in Egypt.  Her lover cannot reach her because he is stopped for having a German sounding name during WWII while attempting to get help.
I beleive it summarizes what lines writen on a map has done to many of us.  Every time I have heard this or read it  my eyes swell in tears!  An extraordinary book!

[align=center:7a4d987bdd]...the fire is gone now, and I'm
horribly cold.  I really ought to
drag myself outside but then
there would be the sun...

I'm afraid I waste the light on the
paintings and on writing these words...

We die, we die rich with lovers and
tribes, tastes we have swallowed...

...bodies we have entered and swum up
like rivers, fears we have hidden in
like this wretched cave...

...I want all this marked on my body.
We are the real countries, not the
boundaries drawn on maps with the
names of powerful men...

...I know you will come and carry me
out into the palace of winds, the rumors
of water... That's all I've wanted -
to walk in such a place with you, with
friends, on earth without maps.

The lamp's gone out and I'm writing
in the darkness...

Man has always wanted to draw lines around his kingdom - to control and have power.  But Allah subhana wa'ta ala' has made this world for all of us to live in.
Man is corrupt and ridden with the lusts of want.  
Wether we are black or white or brown or yellow - we can blame them all.
We have learned nothing from history!
We still hack eachother over a corrupt rulers command!
Fighting battles which are not even ours to begin with.
The weak defending themselves like a dying woman in the dark!
Who we cannot reach because of lines drawn in the sands.
Where is the glory in that?

....as we watch lovers fade away.  
We die a little every day.
Lost Honor!

I want to walk with you
on earth without maps ~ Badreya

[Ola]

Assalamu Alikum,

Firstly, I’ve mentioned previously that KSA is making it more possible to acquire citizenship. Also, I know ppl who have been offered citizenship and they REFUSED (b/c they don’t want to give up their American, British, Austrailian, etc. citizenship!!!). Actually, a mulsim sister, who is nonsaudi and has been living here all her life, told me that her grandfather was offered citizenship for half a riyal and he refused. I mean there are so many ppl living here w/o citizenships for 10, 20, or even 30 yrs, but they are living very comfortable lives al-hamidulliah.

Secondly, KSA is partly ruled by the scholars, they have a BIG influence on the gov’t. Who said women can’t drive? Well, it wasn’t the rulers who just felt like being mean, but it was scholars who studied the issue and decided that in KSA women shouldn’t not be allowed to drive (they said why, but I will not go in details, BTW they never said it was haram to drive).

When something big happens  that  is against Islam, the scholars hasten to speak out against the act, even if certain princes were involved in it. When Bill Clinton came to Jeddah and he was talking against islam, the Mufti (sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh) immediately issued a report (speaking against what Clinton said) that was cast on Saudi media. Anything that happens, the mufti dedicates that whole jummah khutbah to it.  

I am NOT saying that we should all immediately run off to KSA, I know it’s a difficult process and not possible that all muslims live in one area.

Many of us are just saying what the media says. They say women in Saudi are oppressed we say the same. I mean I personally haven’t  met anyone oppressed,  most women here have things that western women don’t have (e.g. maids, drivers, huge homes) and trust me even w/o driving they go everywhere they want. We just echo the words of the media.

Anyway, we should always have trust in Allah (swt) and ask him for good. No one knows were good is.

If I have offended anyone please forgive me.

Any good I have said is from Allah (swt) alone and any evil is from myself and shaitan.

Salam,
ola  

[Badreya]

Salam alaikum, yes there is a lot of good - and many good points you made.
But I would seriously have an issue if a muslim woman said that saudi women are oppressed in general.
Yes there are some laws that can make things difficult for women, but that doesn't mean all women are oppressed.
BTW - those laws exsist everywhere in one form or another.

[Badreya]

Salam alaikum, the rich have problems, different kinds of problems.......some are the same even.
But I know what you are saying :wink:

[rayofhope04]

Assalamualaikum,

sisters, it seems that some of us want things the easy way. for example you want to make the hijra, but be able to get education, citizenship, etc., right away.  
Have we lost the sunnah of our beloved Prophet sallallahu alayhe wasallam??

I dont see how wanting edcation, citizenship, etc is loosing in the deen.  The specific countries that the sisters are talking about are the countries that hav outragous laws in order to attain citizenship, where generation after generation are still denied citizenship because they may not be ethnically mixed with the nationals.  And citizenship is very important in order to attain many important things.  Such as medical care, proper schooling, and government assitance. It's nothing about "I want to be a citizen just to be a citizen"

Here, I think sister Mariam was trying to point out that in accordance to the Qur'an and Sunnah of Rasulallah (salallahu alayhi wassalam), we should be patient in every aspect of our lives (or try at least). I agree with her in that aspect, because today, in our fast-paced world, it's hard to not want like..everything :roll: !! But we should try and wait sometimes if we don't get something immediately, because I'm sure all you sisters know that everything happens if and only if it's the will of Allah (swt). He is the most Wise. He knows what is the best for us and as humans, we have limited knowledge. Right now something may seem very good, a wonderful opportunity, yet a few years later it may cause problems in life.

Since Allah (swt) knows all this beforehand and since He wants the best for us, we should just opt for something (like making hijrah) but if it doesn't work out, we should be accepting and realize that it is probably for the best.

Wassalam

Zahra